Navigating Social Media's Impact on Mental Health | feat. Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB & Amber Blomberg
The BIO Girls Podcast
Mental Health Awareness Month
Featuring: Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB & Amber Blomberg
May is Mental Health Awareness Month.
At BIO Girls, we are committed to helping girls learn about and improve their mental wellness. In fact, mental wellness is one of the four key pillars of the BIO Girls program. During the month of May, BIO Girls Director of Programming and Research, Beth Salafia, will be discussing mental health and wellness topics that are relevant to parents and adolescents in our community. To learn more about BIO Girls visit www.biogirls.org.
Thank you to our friends at Bell Bank for making our 2024 Mental Health Awareness Month series possible!
Season 3, Ep. 1
Navigating Social Media's Impact on Mental Health
Meet Our Episode Guests:
Dr. Harari is a board-certified physician/psychiatrist, medical ethicist, and clinical advisor with a demonstrated background in behavioral health and healthcare technology. He has served in key strategic leadership roles at several healthcare technology ventures and currently serves as a Medical Director at Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota. Dr. Harari is also a Clinical Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the Robert Larner, M.D. College of Medicine at The University of Vermont.
Amber Blomberg is the Foundation and Community Engagement Executive Director at Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota. In her role, Amber forges community and non-profit partnerships across the state and administers the Foundation’s grant programs where a key strategic focus is addressing service gaps and health inequities. Amber also oversees Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota’s corporate giving where she works to deepen the company’s philanthropic roots and further connect North Dakota communities in meaningful ways. Amber has been recognized as a nominee for the YWCA’s Women of the Year and currently serves on the Friends of the Children F-M board, BIO Girls and United Way of Cass Clay Impact Committee’s, the Planning Committee for the Fargo-Moorhead-West Fargo Chamber Leadership Class and is the founding member of the Fargo-Moorhead-West Fargo Chamber’s Executive Women’s Council.
About The Episode:
We are thrilled to have the Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota Caring Foundation as the premier sponsor of our fifth annual Find Your Kind 5K. The Caring Foundation aims to support projects that reflect the foundation's mission by identifying statewide needs and providing funding through grants and initiatives that promote healthy lifestyles for North Dakota residents, and has been a long-time supporter of our mission to increase self-esteem. Here with us today on our BIO Girls podcast, we have Amber Blomberg and Dr. David Harari!
Dive into an insightful conversation on the profound relationship between social media and mental wellness, especially during Mental Health Awareness Month. Discover the balancing act between the benefits and pitfalls of our digital lives.
Listen to the full episode, on Spotify:
A question to ponder in this episode:
Is there a way that we could use social media positively to improve mental health?
Here are a few conversation points from this episode on ways to use social media in moderation for good!
Practice Gratitude. Social media can be one outlet to do this.
3 P’s: Person, Place, Purpose. Aside from in-person, social media is one supplemental way to find these.
Sparking Creativity. Some people can find their sense of creativity on social media.
Finding Causes. Using social media to find causes to be passionate about and ways to volunteer.
Studies, Research & Resources Mentioned:
Show Notes:
Beth Salafia
00:01
Hello, and thanks for tuning in. My name is Beth Salafia and I'm the Director of Programming and Research at BIO Girls. Just so you know a little bit about me, I earned my PhD from the University of Notre Dame, then was a professor at North Dakota State University for 13 years before joining the team at BIO Girls. This month, as you may know, is Mental Health Awareness Month. At BIO Girls, we are committed to helping girls learn about and improve their mental wellness. In fact, mental wellness is one of the four key pillars of the BIO Girls Program. During the month of May, we at BIO Girls are doing a short podcast series to discuss mental health and wellness topics that are relevant to parents and adolescents in our community. Over the next few weeks, I'll be speaking with industry professionals in hopes to bring more awareness and understanding to the importance of mental health. Thanks to our friends at Bell Bank for making this series on mental health possible. And thank you for tuning in.
Beth Salafia
00:56
Hi everyone. We at BIO Girls are so thrilled to have the Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota Caring Foundation as the premier sponsor of our fifth annual Find Your Kind 5K. The Caring Foundation aims to support projects that reflect the foundation's mission by identifying statewide needs and providing funding through grants and initiatives that promote healthy lifestyles for North Dakota residents, and has been a long time supporter of our mission to increase self-esteem. Here with us today on our BIO Girls podcast, we have Amber Blomberg and Dr. David Harari. Let me introduce both of them before we dive into some questions. Amber is the foundation and Community engagement executive director at Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota. In her role, Amber forges community and nonprofit partnerships across the state and administers the foundation's grant programs where a key strategic focus is addressing service gaps and health inequities. Amber also oversees Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota's corporate giving where she works to deepen the community's philanthropic roots and further connect North Dakota communities in meaningful ways.
Beth Salafia
02:00
Amber has been recognized as a nominee for the YWCA's Woman of the Year and currently serves on the Friends of the Children FM Board, BIO Girls, and United Way of Cass Clay Impact Committees, the planning committee for the Fargo Moorhead West Fargo Chamber Leadership class and is the founding member of the Fargo Moorhead West Fargo Chamber's Executive Women's Council. Welcome Amber. We also have Dr. Harari here today and he is a board-certified physician, psychiatrist, medical ethicist, and clinical advisor with a demonstrated background in behavioral health and healthcare technology. He has served in key strategic leadership roles at several healthcare technology ventures and currently serves as a medical director at Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota. Dr. Harari is also a clinical assistant professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the Robert Larner MD College of Medicine at the University of Vermont. Welcome to Dr. Harari.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
02:55
Thank you so much.
Beth Salafia
02:57
Thank you both for being here with us today. First, Amber is going to tell us more about the Caring Foundation. Then I'll ask Dr. Harari some questions about the connections between social media and mental health. So Amber, couple questions for you. First, what are the key focus areas of the foundation?
Amber Blomberg
03:18
Well, thanks Beth for having us today. We're so excited to be a part of this podcast. So our foundation, our strategic priorities are behavioral mental health, social determinants of health, and then health promotion and disease prevention. So in looking at behavioral mental health, we fund behavioral health programs, training and services to really create those environments that improve wellbeing and help people thrive and reduce that stigma around the conditions. Social determinants of health is again, another key area of ours. We really wanna invest in those societal and economic conditions that influence a person's wellbeing and health outcomes. So we know that your health is made up of more than just your latest lab results or the numbers on the scale. It also is impacted by if you have a house, do you have access to care? Do you have transportation? Do you have educational opportunities, and do you have food on the table? So we really work as a foundation to reduce those barriers and fill those gaps around these areas. And then lastly, health promotion and disease prevention. So we really want to support initiatives that promote preventive healthcare measures that help to address conditions that drive disparities in chronic diseases. And they're much more cost effective and beneficial than treatment. So that's included, including like chronic health conditions, balanced nutrition, physical activity, health education efforts, and early detection and screening.
Beth Salafia
04:44
That's so awesome. Thank you, Amber. Now, Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Dakota conducted a survey on the social determinants of health in North Dakota. And can you tell us some of the key findings related to mental or behavioral health?
Amber Blomberg
05:00
Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to. So yeah, we conducted a survey in partnership with North Dakota State University Center for Social Research. We wanted to gain a greater understanding of the scope of health disparities in North Dakota to better support our communities, organizations, and nonprofits through our grant-making efforts. And we, we could guess as to where those barriers and gaps were in our state, but we really wanted the data and the research to back that up. So we conducted this survey with NDSU to really, again, better understand those disparities and barriers that impact North Dakotan's health and really drive engagement and create alignment with key stakeholders and organizations to help advocate and develop solutions. So all this information that we did found is located on our website, if anyone is wanting to do a little bit more reading, but that's www.bcbsnd.com/sdoh
Amber Blomberg
05:58
But the data collected in this study really shows that there's a lot of work that needs to be done yet in North Dakota regarding mental health. So for ages 15 to 44, suicide is unfortunately the second leading cause of premature death in North Dakota. And despite an improvement in the teenage suicide rate in North Dakota, more teens are now considering it. Mental health conditions, especially for youth, continue to rise in North Dakota. We know mental health is important at every stage of life, and it really determines how we handle stress, relate to others, make choices and walkthrough life. And a particular area of concern when tackling the youth mental health crisis is access to services. So this study showed recent tracking statistics that 46% of North Dakotans live in a mental health profession shortage area.
Beth Salafia
06:49
Wow.
Amber Blomberg
06:49
And also, we certainly can't blame the pandemic in its entirety, but humans are not meant to be isolated. And you know, today we're seeing those higher rates of anxiety, depression, and suicidal rates. And, and this is just, again, one of the why this is a key area of focus of funding for our foundation. Life is hard and we want to ensure that folks have the tools and the resources available so that when life knocks you down, you can get back up and persevere through those challenges.
Beth Salafia
07:15
Definitely. So what can you tell us about stigma and some ways to reduce the stigma?
Amber Blomberg
07:25
Yeah, that's a great question. So our foundation proudly supports many different initiatives across the state to help reduce the stigma. As you mentioned at the beginning, we are just excited to be a premier sponsor for the BIO Girls 5K coming up in May. BIO Girls is doing such incredible work to help boost self-esteem, confidence in setting goals, and embracing new challenges for the young women across North Dakota. And we just feel too that by championing collective efforts and taking those active steps to address critical issues of youth mental health challenges and the limited access to care is just top of mind for us. We recently, last summer, did a strike out the stigma with some area baseball clubs, and we did shut out the stigma with some hockey clubs. And we really wanted to leverage sports teams and the power of community engagement to partner and amplify the important messages of decreasing the stigma of accessing service and increase the access to services. So these unique partnerships have really been helping to not only raise awareness but help raise funds to further improve mental health awareness and access to these vital services across North Dakota. And there's so many other initiatives just like that that, that we're doing. Again, we're a grant making foundation. We partner with many different nonprofits across the state, including bio girls. So just really wanting to, you know, make sure that they have the sustainability to continue to do all the great things for years to come.
Beth Salafia
09:04
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your support and for all that you do for the community and the state of North Dakota. It's amazing.
Amber Blomberg
09:13
You're very welcome.
Beth Salafia
09:15
All right, well, thank you Amber. Now let's hear a little bit more about the connections between social media and mental health from Dr. Harari. Dr. Harari, can you tell us how social media affects mental health and maybe a little bit about how it might affect physical health too?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
09:36
Sure. Happy to be able to do so. And Beth, thank you for, for having me and for having Amber here today to discuss this important topic. You know, I think we'll get to this in a bit, but I do want to sort of preface by saying, you know, there are obviously positive attributes to social media that I think we all know, and hopefully we'll be able to discuss that. What I think I want to start by saying is highlighting the concern that social media might have, particularly in this generation as you and some listeners may know, in 2023, the surgeon general Vik Murthy initiated an advisory outlining concerns for social media, particularly in this generation. So I think if one is able to take a look at that as well as sort of the abundance of emerging literature coming out on the consequences of social media, what we know is that there's certainly a link or correlation between heavy social media use and increased risk for depression, anxiety, loneliness, self-harm, and, you know, sometimes even suicidal thoughts.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
10:45
So, you know, again, I want to stress that we're, we're talking more in terms of correlation or an association between heavy social media use and detrimental mental health effects. And I think addressing your second part of the question in terms of physical health, I think, you know, the more time one spends in the online world or in the virtual world, it certainly comes or can come at the expense of physical activity. So we do know that as humans, we require physical activity to maintain health. You know, for most adults, that's usually between 30 and 60 minutes a day. For teens and youth, generally the recommendation is to get at least an hour of moderate to vigorous physical activity a day. So the more one is consuming social media, you know, the worry is that comes at the expense of physical activity. And the other thing I would mention is, you know, I think it's fairly well documented that social media use or technology use in general can have a detrimental impact on sleep, another important aspect of being a human in this world. So those are the two things that sort of most come to mind in terms of thinking about impacts on physical health, both in terms of activity levels and, and sleep.
Beth Salafia
12:12
Yeah. Thank you for that. You talked a little bit about depression and anxiety, so I am wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the, the connection or the correlation, like you said, between social media and anxiety and maybe hitting a little bit on social anxiety. Like are there any connections there?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
12:34
Yeah, sure. So I, and again, I want to stress this probably, you know, can work both ways. I think, you know, for someone who may be socially anxious, maybe they're an introvert, it's difficult to engage socially, at least in an in-person way. And getting together with folks might invoke all sorts of anxieties. They may sort of seek refuge in an online world or in social media. And that may actually be a good outlet for them to socially engage with others. At the same time, I think if you're an anxious person or a socially anxious person, the activity of engaging in social media may actually be reinforcing the anxiety that's there in the first place. And so you have this sort of loop where you're feeling anxious, maybe you're feeling isolated, you go to social media to engage with others in maybe a more anonymous way, maybe in a way that feels more protected, but in turn it can actually generate increased anxiety.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
13:43
And I think that's one of the things that studies have found that even though folks may be feeling anxious and they're going to go to social media to relieve that anxiety, it creates this cycle that actually is increasing or leads to increased levels of anxiety. One or two of the areas where I think, you know, one might find that is particularly, you know, the phenomenon that's you know, called fomo or fear of missing out, where there's this constant urge to check, you know, maybe I missed something. Maybe someone says something, maybe someone likes something or dislikes something where you maybe initially that feels like, you know, it's not increasing your anxiety, but the constant urge and the constant need to check and recheck actually creates a loop of incessant anxiety. The other sort of area that comes to mind is for folks maybe who may be more prone to low self-esteem or maybe are struggling with low self-image, maybe they are more prone to a streak of perfectionism and they're going to, you know, social media platform or site.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
14:57
And that again, is sort of exacerbating those elements. So, you know, if you think you're not good enough or you're not doing something well enough and you're seeing other people doing this activity or you know, saying this particular type of statement, and that seems to be much better than you can do, right? Because we know that people tend to highlight that which they do well or they think they do well, or things that seem perfect or various items or sort of airbrush with this degree of perfectionism in the social media world. And I think when, you know, you're going and seeing those things that could only heighten your sense of anxiety. So whether it's you know, the fear of missing out, whether it's seeing, the pictures and the statements from others that are, seem better than your own life. I think it could only sort of hide it once a sense of inadequacy or low self-esteem or low self-image. So those are the things that I would be concerned about.
Beth Salafia
16:00
Yeah, as you were talking about fomo, I was just thinking, I was reading a book not that long ago that talked about fear of, what was it, fear of people's opinions. So it was like, have you heard of that faux po fear of, is that what it is for fear of people's opinions? And so I can imagine that coming into play there too, right?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
16:22
Yeah. Yeah. I, a hundred percent, again, I think, the initial sort of desire to almost satiate the anxious feeling is there and so you can see why one would sort of seek that out or search and answer for it or sort of, you know, in the very sort of short term actually do so and satiate that anxiety that you were feeling that maybe you're missing this out or maybe you think, you know, I can do this a little better. Or maybe if I just get this, this like, but what we're seeing is that that can have a long-term effect in terms of actually increasing that anxiety and keeps you coming back for more. Yeah.
Beth Salafia
17:12
You know, I appreciate what you said about the connections being correlational as I've spent over a decade and research myself, so I'm very hesitant to say like, cause and effect and, and things like that. But I was wondering if I could put you on the spot for a second and if, you know, any research that's been done on, on the actual direction of effects, so like how would social media use affect mental health in that direction and then vice versa. Is there any, do you know of anything that's been done that can, that shows the actual direction of effects? Or is it, can we just say it's correlational, it's the classic question of like the chicken and the egg, right? Which one comes first? Or, or they both, can they both come first and then come second? Does that make sense?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
18:01
Sure, yeah, it doesn't make sense. I mean, the honest answer is I'm not aware of any sort of large scale randomized placebo controlled trial that that has established, you causation in this field. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I I'm not aware of it. I think the most research we have today, which sounds like you're familiar with as well, is that, it's largely correlational. I think we probably can infer a fair degree from that and folks have various opinions, but I think in terms of where the research is right now it remains sort of a strong association and it's no less important. I just think, you know, we can't necessarily claim a linear causality, but as you know, social media and technology and technology in this space is still fairly new and I'm confident that sort of the research will follow with certain, with more answers for your question.
Beth Salafia
19:10
Yeah. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure if it matters which ones comes first because of the strong cyclical nature of it. Right. You know, they mental health and social media use, they affect each other in a lot of different ways. So maybe it's not really a question of which one comes first and leads to the other. Maybe it's just looking at them both together and how our mental health affects social media and social media affects mental health. So that's just exactly, sorry, I put that out there. I was just curious about it.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
19:43
That's an excellent question.
Beth Salafia
19:45
Thanks. Can you tell us if there are any differences in the connections between social media and health for children versus teenagers versus adults? I know that's kind of a long question in a lot of different age groups, but based on what, you know, are there any differences between the age groups, some connections between social media and health?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
20:09
Yeah, you know, I think I would say two things about that. One, I think the data that's out there that exists is that we know that although adults consume social media to a fair degree. I'm sort of going to lump, kids and teens or adolescents in sort of one major group here. But they consume social media at a rate that's close to double or double amount of time then relative to adults. So just by the nature of how much time, you know, kids or adolescents are spending with or consuming social media, that's significant in terms of just how adults are, are engaging in social media use just by virtue of time. The second thing that, that I would mention is this has been fairly well documented that the brains and the neural circuits of kids, youth adolescents are still very much in development until the age, you know, sort of your mid twenties, right?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
21:16
I think 25 or 26 is sort of the age that generally people attribute to sort of a more mature development of the human brain and particularly the area that, that exerts more sort of rational control thought processes. So I think that that's an important aspect to keep in mind here because as kids and youth and adolescents in particular engage in social media in a time when their brains are really very moldable, really very malleable, we know that they have less impulse control compared to sort of the adult population and their ability to, in capacity to sort of act on those, on what they're consuming and what they're seeing and what they're reading is definitely more, you know, it's a more sensitive time period in their lives. So I think that's a key thing to keep in mind, both in terms of again, how much time they're spending and I think, you know, from some estimates that I've seen on average youth are spending at least, you know, three and a half hours a day on some form of, of social media and that's on average, right?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
22:30
So that means, you know, people, there's youth that are clearly spending more time than that. And so again, in a time or in the years that are transformative in terms of their brain circuitry, that's an important thing to keep in mind.
Beth Salafia
22:47
Yeah. That number is wow, like that's my reaction to that number. I can't, I mean, how, is there enough time in a day to spend that long on there? But that actually is, it leads me to my next question. So if that's an average, obviously we know there are some that are less and some that are more, but is it possible then to get addicted to social media and how do we know if someone is addicted? Are they spending more than, you know, four or five hours? Is it a, is it a number thing or is it something else? And what, three parts to this question. So is it possible and how do we know, and then what would be the effects if there is such an addiction?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
23:31
Yeah, great question and I want to sort of just backtrack one second. Going back, I mentioned earlier I was talking about, I read it at the time and reread it recently, that surgeon general's warning around social media use and youth in particular. And you know, that you'll see that number in that report as well, that youth are consuming on average three and a half hours a day is social media. And one of the things that they drive home in that advisory report is that the correlations that they're finding in terms of detrimental impacts on mental health, they were seeing the effects just based on three hours a day. So if three most youth are consuming three and a half hours or on average consuming three and a half hours and they're seeing this effect actually with three hours a day of social media, it could almost, you know, double your risk of developing symptoms of anxiety, depression, loneliness, and some of the things we talked about earlier.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
24:34
I think the magnitude of this problem may actually be bigger than we might think. Yeah. So to get to your question around addiction, you know, the simple answer is yes, I think you know there's obviously a whole science of addiction and addiction medicine out there that I don't think we're gonna get into the weeds here, but if you think about sort of social media and consumption of social media and sort of the intensity and the time and the impacts it can have, and you see that through the lens of, you know, addiction or addiction science I think most scientists will tell you that, that it certainly is possible to be addicted to social media. I don't think necessarily a time component here.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
25:26
I don't think anyone has had this sort of magic number of you spend this number of hours or this number of minutes and you're addicted and you don't, and then you're not addicted. I think again, if you look at the, this, the overall high-level science of addiction and you think about what addiction is and in terms of sending activating your reward center in the brain against sort of high level here, you get the dopamine signals that sort of create this reinforcing behavior. If you think about much like a drug or some other behavior that is hard to control and that sort of creates a pattern and has an impact on other parts of your life. And in that way, I think you could see the potential for social media to have to be seen or have the potential to be in addiction, right?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
26:23
So to sort of crystallize that. I think if, when, how do you know if you're addicted or one is addicted to social media? I think when it really is interfering with that which is important in your life. We think about sort of what you need to do in terms of your daily living. You know, is it affecting your school activities? Is it affecting your life at home? Is it affecting your relationships? Are you neglecting tasks that you need to do? Again, whether it's youth at school or adults at work, are you not sleeping as well? Are you not engaging in physical activity? Are you neglecting in sort of the vital things you need to do as a human being? Right? So those are things that I think, you know, and actually to be considered in addiction, scientifically we need to have some sort of negative impact on your daily life.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
27:23
I also think about sort of the other aspects of addiction and there are many. So, but if you think about sort of tolerance and withdrawal. So tolerance really is you need, you're consuming social media, but you require sort of a higher dose of it in order to achieve the same effect, right? So if you think about someone who's addicted to a substance or a drug and has the sort of the same that would be the Carla corollary. So, you have some substance and then your body reaches a develops a tolerance and you need a higher dose, right? So the same thing could probably be said for social media where you're spending x amount of time or engaging in x amount of activity, and then you need more of it to achieve the same reward activity or to achieve the same sort of signaling that your brain is receiving.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
28:17
And the other aspect that I mentioned was withdrawal. So if you know folks take a break from social activity or maybe they spend several hours a day and they only spend half an hour in that day and they really sort of feel differently in a negative way, right? So they, they might actually be feeling, you know, maybe more anxious or maybe more depressed or their mood has changed or they're not sleeping as well, right? So those are sort of physiological components that would make me think of social media as an addiction.
Beth Salafia
28:50
Yeah. As you were talking, and I hope you don't mind me asking, a lot of our listeners are parents of teens or children and, and I myself am as well. So I was wondering as you were talking, if we recognize some of these signs that are concerning, you know, the the change in behavior and the things that you mentioned where like social media is starting to interfere with our child or teen's life, what would you recommend we as parents do?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
29:23
Yeah, and as I'm talking to you, resonates with me. I am a parent of two young kids as well and you know, I'm a physician and a psychiatrist, but the caveat here would be I'm not your physician or a psychiatrist or I'm humble enough not to, to give advice to all parents and also to say really, you know, parents are in a tough spot, and I think a lot of people, if you read a lot of literature around this, it's almost unfair to the burden that has falling only on parents. I think parents obviously have to have to model this behavior and really be good role models to their kids and it's certainly their responsibility.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
30:13
But I guess this is not to say that it's only the parents' responsibility. I think this, you know, technology companies and policymakers and schools and organizations all have a part to play in this as well. But in terms of what parents can do, I think much like anything else in terms of parenting and depending on the age of your child is really first to start with an open conversation, ask questions. I think as a parent, you, you wanna be as involved as you can. You wanna know how your kids are engaging in social media. You wanna know what they're engaging in on social media, how much time are they spending?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
30:56
I think you do wanna be mindful, one thing we didn't talk about yet was sort of the unfortunate consequence of social media and that it can sort of be a sandbox for bullying. For harassment. I think parents sort of wanna set very clear standards around sort of what is okay, what is not okay, be on the lookout for if their child is both, sort of on the, maybe on the receiving end of being bullied or harassed. And certainly again, make sure that they're not engaging in a way where they're doing that to another, another individual. But like you said, they as parents should be on the lookout for, how are they sleeping? How much time are they spending on devices, all devices, what exactly are they engaging in?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
31:55
Are they physically active? Are they pursuing other meaningful activities? Are they developing their passions and creativities outside of a screen? Are they going for a bike ride? Are they reading a book? You know, sort of the age old things that we know that we have a lot of years of data on that we know are healthy for kids. I really do think it begins with an interest curiosity, right? I think, you know, most people and some parents decide we're not doing social media, my kids aren't having phones and you don't teach their own for sure. But I think at the very beginning it needs to lead with a conversation and a curiosity. I think parents should be involved as much as they can.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
32:42
Certainly we know there's all sorts of limits and boundaries and apps and sort of time constraints that one can use to work with their kid in terms of setting up boundaries. And, and I'll go back to, you know, I think I mentioned, and, and this is as much for me, maybe as for any other parent, right? I do think, you know, our kids who are home, see, see what we do. So if we as a parent or I as a parent sit down for dinner and check into my phone or just run back to my laptop, or if they see that and they sort of model that behavior. So I think, we can only expect as much as from our children that we expect from ourselves and that does need to sort of come from parents, right? So again, every parent will have to decide what works for them in their household, but I certainly would encourage these time periods of social media detox or technology breaks or screen free zones or whatever it is and whether it's, you know, mealtime or one day a week or several days a week, whatever it is. I think those are important things to really start having conversations with children.
Beth Salafia
34:03
Yeah, I love that. And just to kind of reiterate the being a good role model and also having those open dialogue, you know, those are very important things I think. And I also really appreciate what you said about it's not just on the parents, right? There are lots of other parties that are involved in everything we do too. And so my little note to parents at this point would be to know that you're not alone too, like with our kids and our teens who may be experiencing some of these things. And as I talked to a podcaster a little while ago, she was very adamant about, you know, making sure that parents know you're not alone and there is help out there too if you need it. So don't be afraid to see, talk to someone else about it, see a therapist, have your child, see a therapist, et cetera. So just wanted to put that out there too. Sorry, Dr. Harari, but I have an another, question for you, or do you want to add anything to that? Sorry.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
35:10
Yeah, I was just going to add Beth, if that's okay, yeah. I think I would be remiss if I didn't say certainly we talked a little bit about sort of on the extreme end of things, you know, social media or again, if you have a child or you're caring for someone who may be prone to depression or anxiety or self-harm or suicidal thoughts. And I do think, it's really important to say that, you know, as the parent, as you mentioned, there is help out there if you do start seeing signs of rapid change in mood, interrupted sleep, you know, really sort of extreme isolation or just realizing that, you know, your kid is not, parents have an intuitive sense of knowing their kid is not acting themselves, right.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
35:58
So I think those are things to notice, to be mindful of, again, have a conversation with your with your children, but to know that there is professional help out there and to seek it. So yeah, I'm just reiterating what you are saying sometimes that's reaching out to a therapist, certainly for professional help, sometimes that's reaching out to a physician. Sometimes again, in the case of on the more extreme ends, if there's concern for suicidal thoughts or self harm, certainly seeking emergency services, would, would it be appropriate then? So I do want to mention that.
Beth Salafia
36:38
Yeah. Thank you. And a little while ago you also mentioned that we can think about social media and in two different ways, right? And so far we've talked a lot about the negative associations between mental health and social media, but as you were talking, we realized that that's not always the case. The connection doesn't always have to be negative. So can you talk a little bit about some positive associations between mental health and wellbeing and social media?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
37:09
Yeah, I'd love to and appreciate the opportunity not to be just the Debbie Downer here. So I think it is important and you know, much like the way I view many things in life, I think we need to use the lens of moderation here as well. You might have heard the phrase technology for good. So there are obviously many positive aspects of social media too. I think we started off talking about somebody who might be anxious or socially anxious and they may have challenges, you know, getting together in person with friends or with people that they would otherwise want to convene with. And here's an opportunity where they might have a group or a network of people that they feel you, they could be in a safe space, right?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
38:00
So there may be folks who all over the country live in areas that are more rural, that is certainly in North Dakota, right? And I'm based in Vermont, both sort of rural states might be harder to network with people depending on where you are. And here's a whole world out there where you could find a network of friends. I think there's certainly times where people can find their sense of creativity on social media or various technology platforms. They could act they could find causes that they believe in that they're passionate about, they could network around that they could find ways to volunteer and be altruistic through various sort of social media platforms. So I think there is this concept and I think it is very real technology for good, whether, again, it's, it's through altruism or volunteering or getting together, creating meaningful connections. I don't think it's a substitute for real life in person connections, but I do think there's tremendous positive attributes that can be there.
Beth Salafia
39:24
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Thank you for that. Dr. Harari, this is my last question for you today, and I'm just wondering if there is a way that we could use social media to, again, in that positive way to maybe improve mental health. You talked about some ways we could do that, but maybe also decrease stress. Like, do you have any recommendations and how we could do that?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
39:53
Yeah, I think, again there's a lot. One of the things that, that come to mind to me at least is there's a lot of literature out there and sort of practicing gratitude. It’s one that personally speaks to me it could be sort of a self-practice. You need not say it out loud or express it to others, but I certainly think that this might be an area where folks can have an outlet to express gratitude. We know that it has positive impacts for you and, and for others. So that is one way in which you can engage in social media to have a positive effect. We had talked about, and I think we know that altruism and volunteering have also obviously a very positive impact for others, but also a positive impact for yourself.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
40:54
I'm reminded of Tom Insole, who's the former director of the National Institute of Mental Health. He has since actually gone into the technology world and recently came out with a book in the last couple of years. And he talks about the three Ps, you know, person, place, and purpose. And I think just to, to sort of summarize what he means by that is we need people in our life, most we are social creatures, we need to feel safe around people and we need to have meaningful connections with people place, right? The same sort of idea. But, obviously, we feel safe with the shelter over our head, there's a physical place, but it could be more than that, right?
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
41:46
And so is it a community we belong to? Is it a network we belong to? You know, is it a religious affiliation, a cultural affiliation? What whatever it is for a person and purpose. I think we all sort of search for something, right? Something to connect to, some higher purpose, some meaning, and we get it from various things in life. So person, place, and purpose. And I do think, while you can, you can get all of those in person life, for used in the right way and in moderation, again, not a substitute for, but one can harness the power of social media to really supplement that idea of sort of cultivating the person, place and purpose in their own lives.
Beth Salafia
42:42
Yeah. I love that. Thank you. That's a great resource and a great way to think about things. And I think a great thing to take away with us too. So I just want to say thank you so much Dr. Harari, for being here and Amber for being here today with us. I learned so much and I just kind of wanted to open the floor to both of you to see if either of you have any final words of wisdom or additional resources or just anything you'd like to leave our listeners with.
Amber Blomberg
43:17
I just wanna, again, thank you, Beth, for having us as well as BIO Girls and just for everything that you guys do with your mission to help with mental health as well, and the ripple effect, the positive ripple effect that your mission is doing to youth mental health across the state.
Beth Salafia
43:35
Yeah, thank you. And I was thinking Dr. Harara, as you were talking about gratitude and, and altruism, and I was just, last night or yesterday afternoon actually, I was in a BIO Girls session and it was all about gratitude. So, next time we meet, we're doing a service project. So those are definitely pieces that we hit in BIO Girls as well. So I didn't tell him to say that.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
44:03
That's great. And when I was on the way here for this interview, I was listening to a national radio syndication that was playing on social media and mental health. So I think the gratitude and the social media and all these sort of forces are in there. But yes, Beth, in that spirit, I want to thank you and your organization for doing this. And you know I'm grateful to just be here and speak with you. So thank you.
Beth Salafia
44:37
Yeah, thank you both so much. I appreciate it and hopefully our listeners will get as much out of this as I did. So thank you both again.
Dr. David Harari, MD, MSB
44:47
Yep. Cheers. Thank you.